This month, Jen Andrew interviewed Alexandra Southerland, Housing Attorney with DRNC. They discussed housing discrimination as it relates to people with disabilities. DRNC improves equal access to housing by making sure people with disabilities are free from disability-based discrimination and harassment. We also advocate for housing programs and resources for people with disabilities, represent clients who are at risk of eviction because of their disability, and provide trainings on housing rights for people with disabilities.
Learn more about DRNC’s housing work.
Listen to the recent podcast episode here!
Transcript
Jen Andrew:
The content of this program is intended for people who are blind, have low vision or print disabilities.
Hello, this is Jen Andrew for the North Carolina Reading Service. For the next half-hour, I’ll be presenting the latest Legal Matters. Today’s Legal Matter is underwritten by the Apex Lions Club, serving the community since 1937 by providing services and financial support for people who are blind, have low vision or print disabilities. To learn more about the services provided by the Apex Lions Club, go to apexlions.org.
This morning, I’ll be talking to Alexandra Sutherland, housing attorney with Disability Rights North Carolina. Our topic today is housing and housing discrimination, as it relates to people with disabilities. Research consistently shows that individuals with disabilities face higher rates of housing insecurity, including disability based housing discrimination.
This morning, let’s get to know you a little bit better, Alexandra. Can you start by telling us about your background?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Sure. I have been a practicing attorney for a little over five years now. Before I began to practice, I had to put in the time, and focus, energy into becoming an attorney. I attended Campbell University for undergrad, and then Campbell Law School. I then started my legal career at Legal Aid of North Carolina. After about five years or so, I transitioned to Disability Rights North Carolina in 2023, as a fair housing attorney.
Jen Andrew:
Excellent. We’re so happy you did. What brings you to this work?
Alexandra Sutherland:
For a majority of my legal career, I worked in a wide variety of practice areas, including landlord and tenant law, also known as housing. In housing cases, I defended low-income persons against evictions and pursued other housing related claims in small claims and district court. I became very familiar with North Carolina’s landlord tenant law. However, when I learned that there was an opportunity to defend persons with disabilities by use of the Fair Housing Act, which is codified in Federal and state law, I knew that disability rights was the place for me.
Persons with disabilities is only one of the Federally protected classes and they are protected due to stigma and mistreatment that society tends to give to persons, or certain groups, that are by natural effect, unique. Helping to uphold lawful standards is very important to me in this line of work.
Jen Andrew:
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I ask this question of all my guests. This work is challenging and can be difficult to witness the very real challenges and stigma, as you mentioned. What is your why, what keeps you going?
Alexandra Sutherland:
I have always taken great pleasure and personal reward in defending the under-represented from being bamboozled or severely affected by systemic bias. Any wrong that continuously permeates for years in our society creates a generational and lasting affect, that unfortunately takes generations to also undo. I made it my mission to always be an integral part of any solution to any problem, past, present or future.
Jen Andrew:
That’s impressive. Thank you. We touched on it before, the nature of the work, the difficulty. What gives you hope in this landscape?
Alexandra Sutherland:
This might sound surprising, but it’s actually the small successes that I take notice of. They give me hope because they remind me that all things are possible.
Jen Andrew:
I love that you said that. I was just articulating that sentiment to a coworker, saying taking away people’s hope and the instance where folk’s might not have a vision to work towards, it’s so discouraging.
On that note, why do you keep showing up for work, knowing all the challenges?
Alexandra Sutherland:
And the hard work that goes into it.
Jen Andrew:
That’s right.
Alexandra Sutherland:
I absolutely love what I do. The cliché is actually true. If you love what you do, then you will never work a day in your life. I don’t consider all that I do work because of my unwavering passion and dedication to whomever I serve. It’s a feeling that it’s something I have to do. And also, thanks to the many trailblazers before me, it is a great honor and a privilege to even be doing this type of work.
Jen Andrew:
That’s amazing and we’re so happy you are. You’ve talked a little bit about your background and what brings you here. For our audience, can you describe your role as a fair housing attorney?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Sure. I help to enforce the rights of persons with mental and/or physical disabilities, in the housing context. The law says that historically disadvantaged groups, such as people with disabilities, have a right to equal housing and full enjoyment of their residence. My involvement can range from me educating or negotiating with a particular housing provider, to providing in court representation to a disabled person, who may either be a defendant or a plaintiff. It all just depends on the posture of the case.
Jen Andrew:
Makes sense. What is the Fair Housing Act and how does it help people with disabilities?
Alexandra Sutherland:
The Fair Housing Act is found in both Federal and state law, but it was born out of Federal law. Federal law, as we all know, applies to all states across the US. It protects particular minority groups, including disabled persons, from being discriminated or treated disadvantageously in housing.
For example, covered housing providers cannot refuse to rent to a person with a disability, refuse to offer a loan for the purpose of a home, refuse to make any exceptions to a housing provider’s rules upon a reasonable accommodation request, or refuse to allow a reasonable modification to the structure of a home or common area on the property. Generally, if a person has a disability related need and makes an accommodation request that has not been proven to be unreasonable, then a housing provider must grant the request so that the disabled person can fully use and enjoy their residence, like that a person without disabilities.
Jen Andrew:
That makes a lot of sense. For this particular audience, how do you understand that your services specifically help those who are blind, or low vision, or hard of hearing?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Right. These disabilities are obviously under our umbrella at Disability Rights, so there’s absolutely no difference in the services that we provide to all disabled persons who meet the legal definition of disability. Again, disabilities such as blindness or hard of hearing are well recognized disabilities and are protected under the Fair Housing Act.
Jen Andrew:
Thank you. Just for further clarification, who is supposed to follow the Fair Housing Act law?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Nearly all types of housing providers, both public and private, are subject to the Fair Housing Act. This includes housing providers such as property owners and their employees, so that might be a property management company. Public housing authorities, real estate agencies, banks, home owner’s associations, university housing, and developers just to name a few.
Jen Andrew:
So, almost everybody.
Alexandra Sutherland:
Almost everyone.
Jen Andrew:
Because I know you well, I know that you are very busy. I’m assuming that that would indicate that, unfortunately, there’s a great deal of housing discrimination.
Alexandra Sutherland:
Absolutely.
Jen Andrew:
How often do you see housing discrimination against persons with disabilities?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Well, yes, the numbers don’t lie. The top source of housing discrimination complaints, both in North Carolina and nationwide, are those based on disability. Specifically, 60% of housing discrimination complaints, the US Department of Housing and Urban Development, also known as HUD, that they receive involve disability based discrimination. The majority of disability based housing discrimination complaints stem from requests for reasonable accommodations or modification. At Disability Rights, a majority of our intake calls are consistently from callers who feel that they are experiencing housing discrimination because of their disability.
Disability based housing discrimination has been a significant problem and maybe getting worse, due to our population’s working group unexpectedly acquiring disabilities during the years that both they and society expects that they would be working to earn a sustainable living. The number of cases of mental and physical disabilities are rising at an alarming rate that many of us are willfully ignoring because we feel it is not our problem. If the current times do not show that collectively, this is our problem, the not-so-distant future certainly will.
There are numerous systematically orchestrated factors that have contributed, and still contribute, to disabling mental and physical impairments, either forming or worsening during the lifespan of an individual, with a greater impact, of course, on people of color. The facts are real and the need for collective and combined efforts right now is at its greatest.
Jen Andrew:
All excellent points. I think, sometimes, what gets lost in the narrative about instance of disability is that most people, over their lifespan, will experience disability.
Alexandra Sutherland:
Absolutely.
Jen Andrew:
It really is something that impacts everyone. As you say, numbers are rising. I think a recent statistic showed maybe one-in-three-
Alexandra Sutherland:
Wow.
Jen Andrew:
North Carolinians are living with a disability. Very timely topic, thank you.
Before, you mentioned reasonable accommodations and reasonable modifications. Can you explain a little further what that means?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Sure. A reasonable accommodation is a change to a housing provider’s rules, policies, practices or procedures. A reasonable modification is a structural or physical change made to an occupied residence, and to common and public use areas. However, both a reasonable accommodation and a modification are requested by a person with a disability so that, again, they may be able to use the home the same as their non-disabled peers.
Jen Andrew:
Thank you. Just to let our audience know, how would a disabled person make a request for a reasonable accommodation or a reasonable modification?
Alexandra Sutherland:
To make a reasonable accommodation or modification request is fairly straightforward, if the best steps are taken throughout the entire process.
First and foremost, the request should be made in writing so that there is a written trail to follow. Without a writing, it is hard to show that a request was ever made or approved. Secondly, the person with a disability can make the request on their own, however, generally anyone with personal knowledge of a person’s disability can make the written request on their behalf. Third, this is a very important step here, the request must state, with specificity, the accommodation or modification that is needed. It must clearly state a disability related need for the accommodation or modification. If a disability related need is not clearly stated, then it usually leads to a denial or a delay in the interactive process between the requester and the housing provider.
The next question might be well, how does one clearly state a disability related need? Well, typically a medically or mental health professional can verify and articulate the disability related need for the accommodation or modification, and should do so by a written letter of support.
The fourth point is the requester should then submit his or her request and supporting documentation to their housing provider. It is recommended that the requester give the housing provider at least 10 business days to respond to the request in writing as to whether they will grant or deny the request. That’s the general process, in a nutshell.
Jen Andrew:
Thank you. That makes a lot of sense and it sounds like making sure you’ve got some medical documentation before you even being the process.
Alexandra Sutherland:
Yes.
Jen Andrew:
Because we all know how long it can sometimes take to get in and see somebody. That’s great information.
We all hope this wouldn’t happen, but what if a housing provider did not grant a reasonable accommodation or reasonable modification? Or worse, attempts to evict a disabled person, what would be the next steps?
Alexandra Sutherland:
There is recourse for when a reasonable accommodation or a modification is not granted, or if the housing provider tries to evict a disabled person because they made the request. The requester can file a fair housing complaint with the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development. Again, that’s HUD. Or, they could also go through the local agencies of HUD called the Human Relations Commissions, or HRC for short. The individual would be working with these entities and go through their internal processes of pursuing fair housing complaints.
In an eviction case, there is already an open court case. The disabled person may bring a fair housing defense and/or counterclaim against the housing provider in the case. A case could be resolved by settlement without the need for a trial. But sometimes, in my experience, a case would need to be heard and decided by the presiding judge.
Jen Andrew:
In your experience, do most housing providers, are they aware of their obligations, as far as you can tell? I know that’s hard.
Alexandra Sutherland:
Right. Honestly, it’s hard to gauge it. But I would say, it’s about even where some housing providers are not aware of the Fair Housing Act. To be honest, I was unaware of the Fair Housing Act. After doing so much landlord tenant work I was like, “Wow, this is a thing.” It’s so particularized. That’s understandable. Then, usually education helps them to do the right thing.
Other times, housing providers are aware and they’d rather just ignore or push the boundary on how that law will be applied to their particular situation with their tenant.
Jen Andrew:
Makes sense. It makes sense. If you are a housing provider, we hope you’re paying particular attention to some of these points.
What type of in-court representation do you provider to disabled persons facing housing discrimination?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Typically, we provide representation to a person with a disability, where a housing provider has initiated a lawsuit by an eviction complaint to remove the person from the home. We come to the defense, in these types of cases, to prevent an unlawful eviction. Most of my representation takes place in state court, because that is where many cases start and are resolved, one way or another.
We can also provide representation to disabled persons by filing a complaint in Federal court, if there appears to be a violation of the Fair Housing Act by the housing provider. However, it is important to not that when a complaint is initiated by a disabled person, it places them with the burden of proof to show discrimination and the housing provider is on defense.
However, in any of the situations I described above, Disability Rights is only able to provide representation is there is a disability related connection to the eviction or the basis for the discrimination. We have to decide whether we are able to provide representation on a case-by-case basis.
Jen Andrew:
That makes sense. I think I hear what you’re saying, is that there may be instances of discrimination that might not relate to disability.
Alexandra Sutherland:
That’s correct.
Jen Andrew:
That would be out of the scope of our work.
Alexandra Sutherland:
Absolutely.
Jen Andrew:
That makes sense. What type of out of court representation do you provide?
Alexandra Sutherland:
A large portion of our work takes place outside of court. This is because the primary goal is usually to avoid the filing of an eviction or the filing of a complaint. We have to remember that litigation although, might be fun, might be victorious, it’s not a quick process. It also may not offer a just remedy. Generally, litigation takes time, money, and a lot of energy from all the parties involved. We try to get involved early on, if possible, in the effort to settle issues without the need of our clients spending too much time and exhaustive energy that they may not even have, into a case that may ultimately not work out in their favor by a court order.
Some of our out of court involvement might include me drafting a reasonable accommodation or modification request, writing a letter to the housing provider detailing the rights of our clients. Negotiating with the housing provider, and even attending administrative hearings in subsidized or affordable housing cases. To just expound on what that administrative hearing process is, it’s different from going through the civil courts. It allows parties to work out their issues before a case is filed in civil court, where the rules of evidence and a lot of other things come at play. Usually, we try to step in at that point, to prevent going further than that.
Jen Andrew:
Yeah, that makes sense. I like that you spoke to the time, money and energy, because we all know that folks who are living with disability, those are already in short supply. Living with a disability is pretty tough in our society, so thank you for naming that.
What does it mean for a disabled person to self-advocate? You talked a lot about maybe trying to avoid some of these energy draining activities, so maybe there’s a first step that involves self-advocacy?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Oh, yes. Yes. To self-advocate, we might define that as meaning that one understands their rights and employs the courage needed to exercise those rights by their own efforts. We encourage self-advocacy where possible. Excuse me. We encourage self-advocacy wherever possible, because we understand that every person who needs legal help cannot be served by the services of an attorney. However, we do our best to provide the guidance, and basic information, and knowledge to the public so that self-advocacy can be made possible for them.
Jen Andrew:
That’s a great point. It sounds like really educating folks is a great first step. Do you provide trainings on the Fair Housing Act to the public?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Yes. Because we understand the importance of community education to help those in need of basic knowledge about their rights, we are in the process of scheduling in-person trainings, virtual trainings and releasing video trainings that we’ll post to our website and social media. We’re also available for trainings upon request.
Jen Andrew:
That makes sense. Are there any most important things that maybe you’d want somebody who is getting to rent or purchase a home to know before entering that situation?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Always make sure you read the paperwork. If you can’t understand it, please include someone that you trust to read your lease, to read your rental contract purchase, to read the HOA covenants that might be there. So again, understanding documentation before you sign is critical. Also, if you know you’re going to need a reasonable accommodation or modification, go and ask for that up front. There’s no reason to wait until you get in. Let the housing provider know what you need, why you need it, and like we talked about before, just making sure you get all the documentation needed to verify and support that request.
Jen Andrew:
Would you have any materials that might help a disabled person advocate for themselves?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Yes. At Disability Rights, we have tons of materials on our website. There’s written guidance there, there’s templates, there’s sample letters for the requester for the treating physician, that provides the education and encouragement to all those involved with someone trying to make a request. We, of course, see that most of time, that our materials are typically used when there is a need to make a written reasonable accommodation and modification request.
Jen Andrew:
How could a person with disability who feels they’ve been discriminated against by their housing provider apply for services?
Alexandra Sutherland:
If you are a person with a disability and you feel that you have been discriminated by your housing provider because of your disability, you may call our intake line at 919-856-2195. Or, the faster route, would be to apply online at www.disabilityrightsnc.org.
Jen Andrew:
Thank you. I also was curious, I know you probably can’t provide details, but is there a recent case maybe that sticks out in your mind, that feels like a big win or maybe felt encouraging?
Alexandra Sutherland:
Yes. Yes, there is one. This was a case involving the public housing authority. This particular person needed a reasonable accommodation for a live-in aid. For years, it was known but the housing authority did not give it much attention until we got involved. Once that took place, we were able to have a formal hearing. We were able to get our client a live-in aid, and also his voucher was reinstated, because that had ceased in this process as well. We’re waiting for subsidy payments to be paid to the housing provider that missed out, and we’re waiting for everything to check out, and we can all move forward happily.
Jen Andrew:
Excellent. I will close by asking, if I gave you a magic wand and you could change one thing about our system as it is now, what do you think that one thing would be?
Alexandra Sutherland:
That’s a loaded question. I would change that … I think more transparency. I think sometimes, we see folks make certain decisions and we assume that they made the decision a certain way, but if people were just more honest and open about why they did something, maybe conversations might go a little better and people might be a little bit more understanding on both sides. That might be it.
Jen Andrew:
That sounds like sage advice for everyone.
Alexandra Sutherland:
Yes, right.
Jen Andrew:
I love it. Well, thank you so much, Alexandra, for talking to us today. Our listeners, I hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode of Legal Matters. Again, I’m Jen Andrew, reading for the North Carolina Reading Service. Today’s episode is underwritten by the Apex Lion’s Club, serving the community since 1937 by providing services and financial support for people who are blind, have low vision or print disabilities. To learn more about the services provided by the Apex Lion’s Club, go to apexlions.org.
The content of this program is intended for people who are blind, have low vision or print disabilities. This broadcast is readily available as a podcast at our website, ncreadingservice.org. If you have any comments or questions, please give us a call at 919-832-5138. Thank you for tuning in, and so long until next time.